Praying Liberally is a new initiative of the Drinking Liberally folks.

Some of you here might know of me/my ideology, others not. In any event this diary has been a long time in formulation so I hope it makes some sense. People have been asking me for my thoughts on this topic and so I hope it does make some iota of sense.

I have given the issue a lot of thought.

What makes a conservative "different" from a "progressive" To me there is not one answer that could cover every and all situation since of course not all progressives nor are all conservatives the same. But I do think there might be an overarching theme, something that might cover the chasm of what separates the two groups.

Sure, some on the progressive side will say "Conservatives are evil, evil I tell you" that is how they differ from us... well those on the right will answer with "Progressives? They’re anti-American evil-doers" and be done with it. Case closed. Or is it? I do not think so. Even if everyone on one side thought everyone on the other was evil there has to be a reason for it.

<More after the break>

When you get right down to it, beliefs are certainly odd.  As Bill Hicks said, just believing something doesn't make it real.  It's all in how you were brought up or how your viewpoint was shaped by your environment and your life experiences.  

As a child, I had a dream that terrified me.  It was me, in a bubble, smiling and happy, an imbecile, without a care in the world.  This dream has stayed with me throughout my life.

It wasn't until close to a decade later that I realized that this was what a lot of people think of when they think of Heaven.  Personally, I've grown to think of heaven as something entirely different, but I've never known quite what that means.  Now I'm thinking that it's just a word without meaning; a nice story people tell one another to make their lives down here seem better.

For most of my life, I've consistently believed that it wasn't complicated to believe in science while still holding strong religious beliefs.

I'm not convinced that this is wrong, but I no longer hold it as being something so easy and comfortable to do.  

Don't get me wrong: I love the idea of religion.  I love the idea of afterlife.  I love the idea of having someplace to go when this world is done, or even the idea of returning to this world in a different form, of having a soul which continues on.  

But really, I just don't see it that way any longer.

I think I need to begin this with a story.

I recently listened to Thom Hartmann talking to Chris Hedges




While the show implied that atheism and science were the same, they are not. Also God and religion are not the same. In particular science may lead to a belief in God and a religion does not necessarily have to have a belief in God.

The issues are more complex.

I saw this comment on a diary today:

Progressives are just as adamant about the morality of their cause.  They just don't believe in a deity, so they don't invoke it.

I responded:

What in the world makes you think [that lack of faith] applies to "progressives" as a group?

My interlocutor suggested that I take a poll.  So I am.

[PS: sorry about the spelling errors.  Too quick with the mouse.]

So I was just poking around kos, as I am wont to do when I have a few minutes. I ran across "obama-thon (2.0)" (http://www.dailykos.com/story/2008/3/21/19510/3700/247/481813) and clicked on it.

A 14-year-old passionate believer, with a huge number of links to resources on "what Obama will do," and why it's important to raise $100,000 for the Barack campaign. Charming, but it's much more than that.

 Christopher Hitchens of Slate magazine accuses the current presidential campaigns of using empty, clichéd slogans. About Obama’s campaign theme, he says the following:

Sen. Obama, meanwhile, had picked the slightly less banal and more cryptic mantra "Change We Can Believe In," which I call cryptic only because at least it makes one ask what it can conceivably be intended to mean.

 We need only look to George W. Bush’s campaign promises and presidential actions to get a clue, an overwhelming clue, as to its meaning.

What do you believe in, Kossacks? I have been getting that question a lot in my life lately and it has provoked some interesting discussions (and only four arrests!) so; I thought I might throw it out and see what happens.

Now in the interest of comparing apples to apples the Dog is going to provide a definition of belief. I did not look it up, so if it is not in your Funk and Wagnall’s I apologize in advance. So, for the purposes of this diary (assuming you want to play along, gentle reader) we will say that belief is faith in something without proof, e.g. "I have never seen Big Foot, but I know he exists". A statement like that would be called belief.

Since this is the Dog's diary, it is only fair that he goes first. Let me start with what I don't believe, I don't believe in God, gods or any deity like beings. I don't believe in vampires, werewolves, fairies, ghosts, UFO's, astrology, ley lines or the healing power of Peanut Butter. Oh, and Big Foot, to include Sasquach (or however you spell it) and the Yeti. Sorry Big Fella, you just don't seem to be there.

There is much that I like about America.

I like that we are allowed our own opinions and can shout them from the mountaintops (or from the Internet mountains).

I like that we are allowed to disagree.

I like that we guard these freedoms, sometimes by trying to over-shout those we disagree with.

My mother, a Hillary supporter, asked why I am voting and supporting Obama.  That got me thinking about, "why do I care so much about him?"

The answer to me, was simple.

Because I love history.

I believe in the intrinsic worth of all human beings, even if they don't deserve it.

I believe there are no such things as "inalienable rights."  Our rights are very alienable and the government has been trying to alienate them ever since we gained them.  Our rights were hard one and hard kept through blood and sweat and pain, and it is incumbent upon all of us to keep an eye on those that would strip them from us.

I've intended to write a diary about religion and tolerance for a while now. Apparently I was beaten to the punch earlier today. I think the diarist went a little too far "demanding" respect and tolerance. I agree that respect should be earned, even though you wouldn't think tolerance would be hard to come by on a progressive Democratic blog.

As much as I would like to declare, as Judge Snyder did in the Simpsons episode "Lisa the Skeptic" that religion stay at least 200 feet away from science at all times, this is impossible. People who believe and people who don't will continue to cross paths in this society and in our discussions on Daily Kos.

I enjoy these discussions, and take part in them when I can. But I think there's something that could make them all go a lot smoother.

Can we please stop calling people who believe in God "delusional"?

Funny thing, they call this place Georgetown.

They have no idea.

It’s the right town, but the wrong George.

And I mean that in the best possible way. Theocracy tries to combine matter & anti-matter.

Ye cain’t let them touch, Cap’n! Or she’ll blow!

As Scotty well knows, certain elements must be kept separate from each other, or there’s hell to pay. Fresh butter and old fish. Disco and metalheads. Church and State.

Theocracy uses government structure to enforce observance to a particular religion. Religion relies on faith which is built on belief. All of which, by their very natures, cannot be proven, only believed. And therein lies its explosive quality.

Belief must be arrived at through each human heart. It is about trust and acceptance. It is a mythic structure we spin about what we do not know or incompletely understand. Belief is a product of consciousness and our own ability to speculate about philosophical questions. It cannot be explained, only felt. So, ultimately, true belief is about a lack of enforcement.

Because, dammit, if you have enforcement, it’s not belief any more.

To the flipmobile!

For those that missed it, there was a very interesting interview at beliefnet.com with John Edwards on the meaning of his faith. They also have a video version there as well.

In the interview he talks about a number of issues such as moral issues facing America, faith and politics, the blogger contraversy, his opinion of Bush, and a number of other things. I've included some quotes of some parts that I especially liked below.

What impresses me most is that Edwards doesn't wear his faith on his sleeve. He doesn't flaunt it; in fact, he hardly talks about it normally. More importantly, he sees his faith as more than a belief system, but a call to action in areas like poverty, health care and foreign affairs. In other words, talking about values without trying to make the world a little better doesn't do much.

This is the first diary I've written.

I am an American citizen from upstate New York. I am a writer. I am also a high school student; I'll be applying to Cornell University on Christmas Eve and hope to study international relations. I am seventeen years old. In other words, I have no memory or experience of the world beyond home from before the time of the present administration. I don't know what, if anything, that means, but either way, I think my particular sliver of our generation has a unique point of view: the advent of our worldly awareness came no sooner or later than September of 2001.

Our positivity and belief today can have an effect on the results.  I know this is a stressful time and there is a lot riding on this election, but if we go around all day worried that we will lose and how horrible it will be (just yesterday I said I was moving to Toronto if they stole this election) then we may just create that result.

That energy does not help, and I believe it even hurts us.  Let's as group of Kossacks, all believe that we will win.